Charlie Perkins

0:02 Hello everyone and good evening good morning or good afternoon depending on where you're joining us from my name is matt alagaya and I'm the editor-in-chief of it's nice that. And I'm delighted to welcome you all to this the february edition of nicer tuesdays online first off I just want to say really a massive thank you to all of you for signing up for today's event it's going to be a very special one as we're continuing with our new format for nicer tuesdays in 2021. If you haven't heard about this already we've made a couple of minor changes nicer tuesdays will still be held on the last tuesday of every month that much will stay the same what's different is that this year each event is going to have its own theme.

0:36 And instead of four speakers we're going to be joined by two creatives but we'll be talking to them in more depth discussing their work and the issues raised by it and giving you folks at home more of a chance to ask your own questions as well tonight's event has a fascinating theme and one that feels much needed given our times the times we're currently living in the role of humor in the creative industries we're going to be speaking to two creatives who know more than a thing or two about humor and making people laugh in a moment we'll hear from the california-based illustrator min hyo who'll talk us through some of her funniest and most uplifting comics and illustrations then we'll be joined by charlie perkins head of comedy at the london-based production company blink industries I'll be having a chat with charlie and you at home will also have the chance to put your own questions to her as well yeah. So it promises to be a very very fun evening yeah it's time now for our second speaker this evening charlie perkins is the head of comedy at the london-based production company blink industries she's worked on viral cult phenomenon don't hug me I'm scared the alternative comedy show the paddock which was commissioned by e4 and most recently off the air showing on adult swim the latter brought together a number of fantastic artists directors and animators including nadia lee cohen raman jafari jack sacks and joe pelling the co-creator of don't hug me I'm scared in other words charlie is no stranger to the role comedy can play in creative work hi charlie welcome to nice tuesdays online hi thanks for having me how are you thanks very much for joining us yeah I'm well thanks how are you yeah good I am I actually put perfume on for this. And I live on my own so it's yeah fine on it thank you about six months so yeah it's nice to do I know I was gonna say I'm pretty sure I have like yeah 10 bottles of like empty empty perfume somewhere I definitely haven't worn that in many many months nice occasion I guess yeah for everyone at home our new look nicer tuesdays so charlie isn't going to be doing a talk this evening instead I get to ask her lots of questions and so do you at home so just another reminder yeah if a question comes to mind pop it in the chat and I'll try my best to ask it before our time is up but charlie I guess just as a first question really I'd love to know you know how you got to where you are now at blink I mean what's your career path being up being like up to now.

2:55 So I started kind of doing sketch comedy at university there was my mum was at bristol before me and obviously before me it wasn't but she she joined this this group called reunions which I was in and I loved it.

3:11 And it was kind of about sketch comedy and music. And it was this sort of like this fun thing we used to do and when I got to bristol I asked about it and they said oh it doesn't exist anymore because in 1977 somebody the secretary of the society or whatever raised all the money to take the show to edinburgh and then stole it all and left uni and just went on a big holiday so I was like oh that's really interesting and then.

3:34 So I revived it.

3:37 And so I did produce sketch comedy at uni basically and had a really great time doing that took stuff to edinburgh and produce shows yeah in and around bristol and then sort of stuck with live comedy for a while so I worked for a company called the invisible dot for about four years which was an amazing place doesn't exist anymore this really beautiful venue in in camden and then in king's cross where it was kind of celebrating live comedy as an art form and treating it more like theater which was really distinctive and amazing at the time. So that was that was kind of my my breeding ground I suppose and then I moved to the bbc where.

4:11 I worked in radio comedy for a couple of years and that was a great experience just learning how to produce a radio show and the kind of importance of of that medium I think and then I moved into scripted comedy where.

4:25 I worked at tiger aspect for about six months in kind of scripted development and realized that that kind of angle wasn't particularly for me and yeah then came to meet the guys at blink basically through fortuitous circumstances and then yeah I've worked at blink ever since and yeah heading up the comedy department there which is an exciting thing.

4:46 That's amazing I mean you've worked on kind of everything from stand-up live comedy and you know that side of things to then scripted tv yeah it's an amazing amazing journey I mean I guess many people in the audience will be familiar with don't hug me I'm scared you obviously worked on that back in the 2010s like the mid-2010s but you're now working on a new series of it which I'm sure everyone's very excited about I'm just keen to hear kind of what's it like working on that show because it's obviously got such a cult following and it does seem you know quite mad when you when you watch it but what's it like to work on it it's amazing yeah I mean it's it's a real sort of pinch yourself dream come true I think I saw that show when I was working in scripted comedy at tiger aspect and they do amazing things.

5:34 But it was just a real revelation seeing that show and thinking about the kind of visual aspect of comedy and how to kind of approach approach it in a different way I suppose that's not kind of the the more traditional you know a stand-up comedian does a show takes it to edinburgh gets a radio show gets a tv show developed off the back of it it was a really interesting path from art school grads making this amazing very singular very beautiful artistic show that was very very funny so yeah having the opportunity to then work with them and on the youtube series and now on on the tv show where we're making for channel 4 and the bfr it's been announced so I can talk about it.

6:12 So we are making that now.

6:16 So we're in production. Basically we're writing scripts we're doing storyboards we're designing we're starting to build we shoot in this year. And then and then we'll edit it.

6:25 So yeah it's it's all very much rolling now which is very very exciting so yeah it's an amazing process working on that show I think it's something I admired for a long time. And now yeah I'm sort of very very lucky to be part of and I think it's a very important show I think it brings something very different distinctive and I think without sounding pretentious much needed to the british kind of comedy landscape it's something so so unique and doing something so different with comedy that we haven't seen before.

6:54 That's the thing you say much needed what do you what do you think that I guess what do you think is missing that don't hug me I'm scared kind of fills that gap I think it's I think it's several things I think one thing is that that distinctiveness of coming from a different angle that's not the kind of predictable trajectory of comedy it doesn't come from the kind of expected path and I think that's really important especially in an area where we should be seeking out kind of diverse voices and different you know different opinions and all that sort of stuff I feel like it's really important that we don't go to those kind of predictable familiar roots of finding comedy shows and making comedy shows so I think with this I think it's it's bringing something that is yeah very distinctive in its tone it's attitudes it's especially it's it's visual sort of style and for me having worked in kind of in in radio at the bbc which is obviously quite an amazing place to work but quite bureaucratic I suppose quite difficult to to be particularly inventive because they're beholden to beholden to the license fee payers and then working in scripted comedy which is quite a long process where it's all on paper it's not particularly visual and things get kind of adapted and molded and fitted into different different things I think it's particularly important now that we yeah that it feels like we can work on stuff that is that's that's allowed to be different that's allowed to kind of have creative control and yeah bring something to the kind of landscape that isn't currently there.

8:24 And I think I just felt that a lot in scripted and especially at the bbc that things were kind of being repeated a lot you know if there was a successful show. And I'm sure it happened with for example fleabag people that was really successful even though it was its own original singular thing.

8:41 But then people would be like oh that was amazing let's make more of that you know.

8:44 I think things it's really important things are allowed to be its own thing and not to try to be kind of molded to something else which I feel like don't hug me has to this point been very much allowed to be be its own thing yeah definitely I mean it definitely doesn't feel like it I mean certainly watching it doesn't feel like it conforms to any kind of formula I mean how is there is there a little bit of a formula behind it though I mean I'm guessing there's probably not formulas may be the wrong word but is there a bit of a recipe behind it behind the scenes that you can let us in on a recipe for what makes it funny or what makes it distinctive or yeah I guess what makes it funny I mean you know it's it's obviously such a unique sense of humor but yeah yeah that's really interesting I was thinking about that in context of this conversation generally and about what makes things funny yeah for me I I think that the first thing that drew me to it was was that sense of it being funny for different reasons as in like it didn't conform to anything I'd maybe seen in edinburgh or on the live circuit or on television before.

9:45 And I think it was it was it was because of the creative control I think they had in making that show it felt very unique to the voices who were making it it felt very original in its tone and language and and its take on the world I think I think that kind of that thing of being allowed to have to be distinctive to have kind of creative control and to have ownership over the kind of creative voice you're you're you're choosing to to put forward I think it's really important yeah.

10:17 I think it's just distinctive in that sense and I and I maybe we could talk about this bit later but just that I think it's so important for me this show because it feels like although it's very successful online obviously it feels like it really really appeals to a certain number of people I suppose people who really love it people who really think it's like incredible and amazing and that's still a huge amount of people. But in general for me it's so much more rewarding and exciting to work on something that feels like it will be very focused in people who really love it rather than a big broad thing that lots of people might enjoy but maybe not love working on something where you get to work on something where it's like I know people will love this and adore it.

10:58 And it will mean so much to them it's kind of finding that balance between yeah choosing projects where it's like this could be very successful but it won't mean that much to people it might be quite it might be entertainment I suppose and working on something where you feel like you're really making something that will will then yeah really appeal to people yeah that's such a good point I love that you know the fact that you sometimes get this you know something. That's partic maybe quite niche but has such a huge you know cult following like like don't hug me has while we've been talking there's been some images coming up from adult swim on the on the screen and I mean I'm keen to talk about off the air which is yeah something you've been working on more recently I guess just first off for anyone who hasn't seen seen the show it'd be good to kind of play a very quick very very quick trailer just so that people know a little bit about the show before we get to talking about it ♪

12:07 I mean it is quick yeah 15 seconds a 50 second quick trailer but I guess it gives people a bit of a sense of what off the air is like but yeah why don't you tell us a little bit about the show and yeah how you and blink industries have been kind of I guess working on it you had a 10 minute slot didn't you yeah I mean it was a really amazing opportunity so we love adult swim I think as a company we see ourselves quite aligned with them in terms of our kind of comedy output and the kind of visual treatment we give to to our comedy projects and I've loved the show for such a long time off the air it's a really amazing platform for new artists and writers and performers and dave hughes who at adolf swim he's run it for 10 years and yeah it's just such a it's an incredible thing I think it's a really beautiful kind of amalgamation of lots of things.

12:56 And I think it's how adults won't find a lot of their their talent through giving them kind of opportunities through this show.

13:03 So they very very rarely have guest curators they've had two in the past and then. And then us.

13:06 So we were very honoured to be asked and it was kind of off the back of stuff we've done don't hug me the paddock and things that felt kind of I suppose culturally sort of aligned with them that they they offered us the opportunity and yeah it was my dream job really it was really amazing so just got given a decent amount of money to just sort of commission a load of stuff on a subject of my choosing commission stuff and licensed stuff so some stuff that was existing majority was commissioned especially and it was yeah it was such a it was a beautiful thing just got to kind of pull together a list of people I really loved and find a whole load of new artists I didn't I didn't know I hadn't worked with before and yeah charged them with a brief that was here's the topic this is what I want to do with our episode and got all this incredible stuff back.

13:52 And then I edit edited it together into yeah it's 11 minutes but yeah it was a really amazing opportunity and and I'm really proud of it because I think it does what I really I I hope sort of set out to do with it which was kind of merge adult swim and blink industries and what we do and the most important thing there for me was comedy and was humor and was was making this episode I suppose more comedy focused is the way we've referred to it with adult swim than other episodes would have been so a lot of the stuff that's in there is I suppose more yeah comedy kind of driven or or is funnier than other stuff you would see in in other off the air episodes which was a great brief to have and I think it really helped kind of inspire people to do to find that balance between something that was yeah unsettling and unnerving but also funny and for me for the edit it was a really interesting process of how to kind of bring people in with kind of bigger colorful funny funny things.

14:47 And then take a very dark turn in the middle and then kind of come up smiling at the end I really enjoyed doing that and kind of playing with the pacing of the comedy across it and how it worked it's really interesting I mean that that pacing is definitely something that you're aware of as a viewer I mean to give people an example like one of the kind of maybe more bizarre parts is there's a dog with a usb port in the back of its head which is just pretty strange to see and then I guess some of the darker moments you're thinking of ram and jafari is part of that yeah actually yeah yeah romance which I think is so beautiful I think it's probably my I can't say that can I favorite piece in it think he's so brilliant and I'm really proud of that in particular because it was he had a very particular vision for it and he and across the kind of process of him making it he kind of diluted it a bit and and made it a bit more maybe palatable and a bit less kind of deep and dark and and kind of pensive as it as it has ended up being so I'm yeah we kind of pulled it back from that and pulled it back to what he really wanted to do which I was very pleased we did but his is still I I mean it's not laugh out loud funny but still to me there's kind of it's funny in the sense that it reflects things we feel back at us. And it's also that that kind of feeling of reflecting stuff back at us we might not want to say to others or say to ourselves even or admit ourselves it still has that kind of that surprise element I suppose in in that short in particular about what he yeah what he's sort of writing on screen with the subtitles is a kind of reflection of what we might feel that's so funny in that sense to me yeah and I mean do you feel like there is a a need for light and dark in comedy as well I mean it's maybe something. That's a little bit more dare I say a little bit more british than american perhaps when it comes to comedy that. There is a bit more of that darkness in there but do you feel that is a really important part of comedy that.

16:37 There is this kind of light and shade yeah I do massively I think it's really important I think there's a big issue I've said it with comedy being seen as kind of entertainment I think and I think that is detrimental because it's not purely entertainment I think it's challenging in the same way all artists and I think for that you need the kind of darkness you need those moments that are yeah they kind of reflect life back at you in a way you haven't thought of before. And so yeah that that kind of that. That's more where my sense of humor definitely kind of lies I think and what I find particularly interesting is that kind of like unearthing of things you wouldn't have thought about before through kind of maybe more surreal more odd slightly darker aspects I mean I was going to ask like I was going to ask charlie what your sense of humor is I mean is something like off the air that 11 minutes is that a reflection of your sense of humor you know have you. Basically encapsulated your your own sense of humor there yeah.

17:43 I think I have which is a bit worrying because I have sent people and they've come back and been like that was really intense and quite so yeah I've always been very very into things that I suppose niche is the wrong way but definitely that kind of that line between comedy horror and darkness so like I suppose the league of gentlemen and 99 and yeah and shows like that camping block julia davis stuff basically where it is like treading that that line between being quite disturbing and very funny and trying to figure out why that is and where that kind of sits but to me off the air was a dream thing of yeah being able to kind of lure people in with something kind of light and funny and then turn it darker and I think that's that's the kind of attitude I think I have to a lot of stuff I I work on is doing stuff that's kind of a bit odder and surprising and more surreal I think yeah was that was that something you passed on to the artists involved in terms of what you how you briefed them in I guess you obviously had your brief from adult swim but then you when you handed that brief on was it quite flexible to those directors and animators or were you being quite specific about I'd like your film to have this kind of atmosphere and tackle these issues it was kind of a bit of both actually it was really it was kind of dependent I suppose so commission stuff that was more me seeking stuff and and then finding how it could fit in and sort of instinctively being like I love that I want to make that work whatever happens and then the commission stuff was quite a specific brief for me in terms of making it more comedy focused but still keeping the kind of tone and atmosphere of of what adult swim did with off the air generally so that that that kind of implied that's like a darker tone I think because that's what they sort of do you go down that rabbit hole with these shows but yeah it was kind of it was it was a brief for me in that sense and then people would pitch kind of ideas and a lot of the time I would kind of pick stuff out of those and then we'd work on those specific ones so it was yeah it was kind of taylor tayloring people's ideas and yeah and then ultimately the edit was a big part of that as well being able to kind of find places for things and what buttered up best against each other in terms of the comedy and the styles and how to make the audience kind of feel yeah taken along for the ride it was a big part of it I mean it does sound like an absolute dream dream project just to remind everyone watching if you do have any questions for charlie pop them yeah in the chat and we've got a few more minutes left and I'll do my best to ask them.

20:10 But yeah charlie one thing I'm really fascinated by is the kind of the difference between the experience of humor or comedy and the crafting of it I mean let's I mean if you take stand-up comedians as an example you know they spend years crafting a set very meticulously but then the audience kind of experiences it as a real lightning flash you know a lightning flash of inspiration.

20:28 And I guess the same is true for some of you know the animation projects stop-motion projects that you've worked on which must take a long time to make how do you kind of stop something from losing the humor while it takes that long to create that's a really pertinent question because yeah we're scripting the show currently and it's it's hard because yeah sort of feeling like you've gone over something over and over slightly loses the magic of it and remembering what was so special about things.

20:56 But yeah in general I think what I find personally very appealing is is taking silly stuff incredibly seriously so I mean that in terms of like something that is on paper or on screen dumb and quick and just funny about really applying a lot of rigor and production value and time and effort to it.

21:22 So I think donald trump squad is a great example of that.

21:24 And in the way that everything is handcrafted we make every every set every puppet every crop from from scratch it's all handmade and so there's something about the effort and the energy and the time and love passion commitment that's gone into that that really shows I think and really like connects with the audience and I think that's really important and then a bunch of other stuff I've done like we did the short film with jamie dimitri called jarrosy and it's very very very silly but we took it very seriously in terms of the production there's a moment where all of his food and in his kitchen starts dancing with him and he sings a song and you know that took hours to film hours and hours and hours because you have to eat your puppeteer all this individual pieces of bread and a banana and a piece of feta and sometimes you just sort of stop yourself and think this is so mad as a job to be doing this.

22:08 But I think it's really important I think that taking taking comedy seriously I think and and really applying yourself and committing to the joke maybe that's it I think sort of committing to something an idea or yeah or a kind of tone you want to you want to put across so yeah.

22:26 I think it's I think it's about that I think it's the labor of something it really shows as well I think people really connect with it I think you can really see when something's had that kind of passion applied to it and which is important I think in especially what we do yeah absolutely we definitely just saw a picture of jeremy come up on on screen there as you were talking about it.

22:48 And some some great questions coming in from the audience here charlie so david asks do you think comedy can have a role in telling more serious narratives I guess it's something we've touched on already but yeah maybe just kind of I guess like a few a few more thoughts from you on the serious narratives that you can tackle using using comedy maybe even some examples from stuff you've worked on yeah.

23:12 I think that's really interesting I think definitely I think you know humor is a massive part of our our lives and our daily lives and I think it's yeah it's again that thing of kind of reflecting life back at us and making us question things that are difficult in a way that we might otherwise have not questioned them.

23:29 So I think in a kind of yeah in more dramatic narratives it's incredibly important I think you can get with comedy you can you can get to the point I suppose quite quickly you can send up something you can make fun of something I think I think yeah.

23:43 I think you see in a lot of dramas I don't know why line of duty is coming to mind but it has in line of duty very glorious but a lot of funny moments in it.

23:49 And I feel like that that levity is important for the dark and the the kind of light and shade we talk about because I think that is that's important and everything I suppose is that kind of balance tonally you can't have something. That's like perpetually deep and difficult so I think having humor can can not only elevate I suppose dramatic moments and and make dramatic moments more powerful but comedy in itself can be very powerful in the sense of kind of reflecting questions and and life concerns and stuff back at us that we that we might otherwise have have not thought about or not addressed and I think that's important in kind of all narratives basically all storytelling I mean are being so all-encompassing now everything in the world.

24:30 But yeah all storytelling I think needs that that balance I think you'll have like moments in in most things. Basically.

24:36 So yeah it's very important a really interesting question from from poppy I guess this is more of a kind of philosophical one almost but do you think there's a difference between humor and comedy is is juana kind of more of a profession than the other one more of the kind of abstract noun I'll leave you to decide I don't know if there is massively a difference then.

25:00 I think humor is just like I guess that's our day-to-day lives everybody has humor responds to humor find their friends humor full and or humorless in different ways I think but yeah in comedy I don't for some reason that does feel like a kind of description of a job somebody might have to work in comedy but yeah I don't think there's massively I think to have a sense of humor I suppose we can have a sense of comedy I think they're probably one in the same but comedy seems to denote a kind of profession sometimes maybe where human humor doesn't can I talk about one boring thing just because I've been questioning just because humor came up I am very interested in the theories of humor which I don't know poppy you might be interested to look these up.

25:42 But there's three main theories of humor relief superiority and incongruity and that's really interesting to me of just looking at those things because everything seems to fall into those three categories anything.

25:53 That's funny whatever you look at it always can be pulled into from those three things so maybe humor is the kind of the philosophical practice and comedy is the daily application what were those three things sorry I missed the first one I don't know if it was just me but relief which is like kind of tension tension is reduced I suppose so relief if something is gonna go badly and then it doesn't you're kind of relieved and that's funny superiority which is the sense of kind of laughing at others or specifically I think others misfortunes that because it's not happening to yourself and you feel you feel superior because of that.

26:30 And then incongruity which I suppose is the one I'm most interested in which would I suppose be described as kind of surreal or absurd stuff stuff that's kind of challenging expectation.

26:42 So it's something different to what you expected to happen that is really interesting yeah great great food for thought just time probably for a couple more questions I'm afraid but james really good very straightforward question but probably quite a difficult one to answer what is the stupidest thing you love and I don't think this necessarily has to be a show it can be I think anything in james's mind stupidest thing [Laughter]

27:14 oh it's really hard to see the screen and just being like well that is the stupidest thing the thing that was just on there. That's very stupid just the idea that at the start of a show we did a giant microphone walks on to stage and then pulls up to its mouth a tiny person instead of a microphone taps the person on the head the person says hey and then he taps on it to be louder and he's and the little person says hey how's it going like introduces the show.

27:40 So I get a giant microphone holding a small person instead of a microphone is that funny I think that is funny yes I mean definitely think of something super stupid I think jeremy is the stupidest thing I I've probably ever definitely ever worked on maybe ever seen sorry to recommend one of my own things.

27:59 But I think it is that is the epitome of stupid it sounds incredible I will be looking it up immediately after this and a final question from from eleanor again this is a really difficult one to ask eddie any creative but what's your favorite thing that you've worked on and do you think that's what impacted your work as a whole really good good questions but always difficult to kind of choose between your your children in that way yeah sure I think just as a kind of longevity thing I I I run this live comedy night called the paddock which I've run for a long time now about over five years.

28:40 And it started out as a kind of reaction to there not being that many properly properly new material nights in in london where people could go and really try stuff out and be kind of creative and inventive and feel no pressure so there was no kind of industry and it's not big ticket prices you know so where they could really try stuff out and feel kind of free to do that.

29:01 So I set up this this place where people could come and do exactly that and there's no it's not publicized that it's free tickets it's kind of friends friends and kind of close close allies only and people who kind of yeah see a lot of live comedy and anyway so so I run that monthly and it's well obviously not now. And it's very fun and I think it's a really freeing platform for people and and I think it's yeah it's been it's been a great process that.

29:27 So I've run that for for a few years.

29:30 And then kind of translated it and developed it into a tv proposition for for first for channel 4 and then for e4 so it's had two series now both very different guises but both with the same kind of attitude of creating a platform which would kind of support and nurture new comedians and so and allow them to be kind of visually distinctive in what they did so it wasn't just a kind of classic kind of mixed bill of lots of comedians getting up in front of a mic they were allowed to kind of bring their own visual spin onto what they did so yeah.

30:00 I think that.

30:03 That's I've learned a lot from that in terms of being able to just meet so many people it's kind of mixed it's it's people on stage and stuff on screen so it's a mix of kind of film and people performing on stage so the ability to kind of meet new filmmakers and watch new things and meet new comedians and watch new performers has been yeah a really amazing thing and a very beneficial thing for me great well hopefully I mean with the slightly better news that we had yesterday the road map out of out of the lockdown hopefully live comedy will be a thing again I mean presumably you're feeling quite positive about that yeah.

30:38 I think so 17th of may feels like the kind of I mean yeah it's not before then.

30:43 That's what they say so so but but that feels very exciting yeah I mean that would be amazing it really yeah it's it's struggling live comedy massively it really needs to have the opportunity to start again very soon absolutely charlie I'm afraid we've kind of run out of time there.

31:02 But it seems like a good a good rousing message to end on but so thanks so much for joining us and for your time thanks for having me nice to speak to you yeah absolutely